Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

MAN-POWER.

Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will use his powers to prevent the utilisation of labour on any but vital war production?

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I intend to use my powers in order to secure an effective priority in the supply of labour for vital war production; but I presume my hon. Friend would not wish me to create unemployment by stopping useful work if the workers concerned are not required for more urgent or important work.

Mr. Edwards: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, within a few minutes of this House, there are men employed on finishing a certain building, while next door other men are employed protecting buildings already up; also, that men are employed protecting monuments that ought never to have been erected?

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: asked the Minister of Labour what functions he has assigned to Sir William Beveridge in connection with man-power?

Mr. Bevin: I have appointed Sir William Beveridge as commissioner to survey the available resources of manpower of all kinds and to report thereon with suggestions as to the means by which these resources can be utilised fully for national purposes. The survey will cover man-power in all forms, that is to say, men, women and young persons now in employment or out of employment. Sir William Beveridge will not exercise any executive powers as commissioner.

Mr. Lindsay: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that somebody does exercise executive powers to put these suggestions into practice?

Mr. Bevin: That duty has been entrusted to me by Parliament.

Mr. Lipson: Can my right hon. Friend say how long Sir William Beveridge will take to complete this report?

Mr. Bevin: That, I cannot answer, but as each group of suggestions is dealt with they will be brought to me immediately, and I am in daily touch with him.

AUTOMOBILE ASSESSORS.

Mr. Robert Gibson: asked the Minister of Labour on what date he informed the Institute of Automobile Assessors that he would be glad to take advantage of their offer of service; and what steps he has taken in connection with the offer?

Mr. Bevin: On 24th June, the Institute of Automobile Assessors was informed by the Central Register that inquiries had shown that the offer of assistance made by the Institute could not at present be made use of by the War Office. The Institute were informed that I should be glad to take advantage of their offer should the opportunity arise. No vacancies for automobile assessors have since been notified to the Central Register, and persons with these qualifications are not in demand under present conditions. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave last Thursday to the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons), indicating other directions in which such persons could usefully serve the country at the present time.

Mr. Gibson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while the first intimation made to the Institute was on 24th of last month, the offer was made in September of last year?

Mr. Bevin: I was not aware of that.

CHANGE OF EMPLOYMENT.

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make it clear to employers, employed and officers of Employment Exchanges that a workman employed in a factory engaged on work of national importance, is entitled to search for other employment and leave his job, provided he can satisfy the authorities concerned that his prospective employment is nearer his home and is on work of similar national importance?

Mr. Bevin: The Undertakings (Restriction on Engagement) Order, 1940, provides that a worker seeking to be engaged for work in the engineering, the civil engineering contracting, or the building industries, shall register himself for work at a local office, and obtain his employment by means of being submitted to an employer by the local office. In such cases, therefore, workers should not search for work on their own account. There is no corresponding restriction in other cases, except that men previously employed in coal-mining or agriculture cannot take new employment outside their industries, unless such employment is obtained through an Employment Exchange or appropriate trade union approved for the purpose.

Mr. Davies: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is a hardship upon a man if he is compelled to work in a munition factory half time when he can find work full time at the same kind of employment, and still be doing national work?

Mr. Bevin: That is not in the Question.

ENGINEERS.

Mr. David Adams: asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the allegation of engineering shop-stewards, that certain firms engaged in war contracts are retaining redundant numbers of qualified engineers who are urgently required and could be fully employed elsewhere; and whether he will review the basis of remuneration of such firms which appears to put a premium upon the retention of maximum possible staffs, whether adequately employed or otherwise?

Mr. Bevin: I have had a number of representations made to me of the kind referred to by my hon. Friend. In each case I am having inquiries made by my inspectors of labour supply, and, to the extent to which the circumstances warrant such action, I shall not hesitate to transfer the redundant labour to meet other urgent demands. The last part of the Question should be addressed to the Minister in charge of the Supply Department concerned.

Mr. Adams: The Minister will no doubt be aware that the views and allegations expressed in the Question are fairly generally held; ought not a statement

allaying the same be made at an early date?

Mr. Bevin: I am aware that there has been a tremendous hold-up of skilled labour, and I have put every pressure upon the Supply Departments that they must fight less for themselves and must try to accommodate, to meet the urgent orders of priority, in conformity with the strategy of the war.

FARM WORK (CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS).

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Minister of Labour how many conscientious objectors have been registered for farm work; and how many have satisfied the requirements of the tribunals and are now at work upon farms?

Mr. Bevin: I am obtaining the information asked for by my hon. Friend, and will communicate with him as soon as possible.

CHAUFFEURS AND CHAUFFEUR- MECHANICS.

Mr. Gordon Macdonald: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will endeavour to devise and put into operation a scheme whereby chauffeurs and chauffeur-mechanics in private employment could be used to better advantage for the war effort?

Mr. Bevin: Men of the type referred to by my hon. Friend should be able to adapt themselves to work in armament factories, especially after a period of training in a Government training centre or art employer's works. I would, therefore, suggest that private employers should consider whether they could not release their chauffeurs or chauffeur-mechanics for this vital national work. The men should not, of course, be dismissed, but advised to register at their nearest Employment Exchange and indicate their willingness to take a course of training when so instructed.

Mr. Macdonald: If the suggestion proves ineffective, will the right hon. Gentleman take other measures?

Mr. Bevin: Certainly.

REFUGEES.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to utilise the services of able-bodied Belgian refugees, of both sexes, many of whom are living in idleness, and would welcome an opportunity of being usefully employed?

Mr. Bevin: I would refer to the reply given to a similar Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Joel) on 13th June.

Mr. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the distressing circumstances now existing in many public parks in London, where hundreds of able-bodied Belgians congregate under the trees, men and women, and are there all day long with nothing to do?

Mr. Bevin: I realise the great difficulty, but I would ask hon. Members to appreciate that, in dealing with refugees, many other considerations have to be taken into account, and that it is not an easy problem to solve.

Earl Winterton: Is the Minister not aware that many of these men are highly-skilled workers with unimpeachable characters, and would be only too glad to take part in war work in this country?

Mr. Bevin: If the right hon. Gentleman will send me from any organisations the names of men for whom the Home Office can vouch, and who are skilled men, I will see that they are placed immediately.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: Has the Minister's attention been drawn to an offer by a company in which I am personally interested to give employment to 250 skilled refugees? If they are here, why has not the Minister replied to that letter?

Mr. Bevin: I have no knowledge of that letter at the moment.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: Then I will draw the Minister's attention to it again.

WOMEN.

Miss Ward: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement on the assistance to be given to him by a committee of women Members of Parliament?

Mr. Bevin: On 19th June I received a deputation of women Members of Parliament and discussed with them various questions relating to the employment of women in war-time. At the end it was agreed, at the suggestion of the deputation, that a small committee of women might usefully be created. I promised that, if this committee arrived at any agreed proposals—[Laughter]—I meant that quite seriously—I would put them in

touch with my Labour Supply Board in order that they might have an opportunity of putting before the Board any proposals and information which might be useful in connection with the employment of women in war-time. This would be similar to arrangements I have made in other cases to put persons and organisations in touch with the Board.

Miss Ward: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, I would like to know whether he is aware that the committee in question has already agreed to a proposal which has been forwarded to the right hon. Gentleman?

WORKSHOP ORGANISATION.

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Labour what guidance and suggestions it is proposed to give to those engaged in industry with a view to the formation of suitable types of works councils for the consideration of industrial matters of mutual interest in their works; and whether he will take steps to see that the experience of his Department is made available to all those interested?

Mr. Bevin: Whitley Councils and joint machinery generally cover a very wide field of industry, and in this way a variety of forms of workshop organisation has been established. I take the view that this matter is best handled through joint machinery of this character.

Mr. Mander: Could not the great experience of the Ministry of Labour and all the information which it has in this matter be placed at the disposal of anybody interested in the problem?

Mr. Bevin: I did that before I entered the House.

Mr. Mander: Will you continue doing it?

YOUNG PERSONS (HOURS OF LABOUR).

Mr. Lindsay: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that thousands of young persons are working excessively long hours and that in some places they are compelled to sleep in common lodging-houses; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

Mr. Bevin: I am aware that during recent weeks young persons have, in a number of cases, been working long hours; I have recently made an Order which will have the effect of bringing this


to an end. In answer to the second part of the Question. I am taking active measures, in consultation with my colleagues, to arrange that suitable lodging and hostel accommodation is provided for young persons.

Sir Frank Sanderson: Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that, so far a it is practicable, it would be expedient to run three shifts a day instead of running one or two shifts?

Mr. Bevin: It depends on labour supply in the different districts. I am circulating a suggestion to industry for a practical rota of work that can be adopted, so as to secure adequate rest and yet maintain the optimum of production.

MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (WAR SERVICE).

Sir H. Morris-Jones: asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make in reference to the desire expressed by many hon. Members as to the fuller utilisation of their services in mobilising the national will and effort for victory?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): I do not think that I can usefully add anything to the reply which I gave on Tuesday, 11th June, to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Handsworth (Commander Locker-Lampson).

Mr. Higgs: Is it to be expected that hon. Members will "go to it"?

PRIVATE WORKS.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he will consider putting a stop to the use of steel, concrete and skilled labour on private works, and transferring all three to works of national importance, such as the construction of fortifications?

The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Greenwood): Arrangements have been in existence since the outbreak of war for priority to be given to direct and indirect Government works. Labour and materials are being diverted from less essential works, and additional steps are being taken to reserve steel and other materials in short supply for works of urgent national importance.

Mr. Cocks: While I recognise the accuracy of that answer, cannot the Government go further towards stopping the unnecessary use of material for

private work and using it for more important work?

Mr. Greenwood: The Ministry of Supply is now on the point of issuing an Order which will make it necessary to obtain a licence for the further use of steel on buildings.

Oral Answers to Questions — MILITARY SERVICE.

CHOICE OF SERVICE.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in registering for military service, young men are still allowed to express a preference to serve in one particular Service or whether this system has now been abolished; and whether he is aware that a number of young men who registered on 22nd June were not given such freedom of choice?

Mr. Bevin: Men registering under the National Service (Armed Forces) Act may express a preference for Naval or Air Force service. The previous practice of asking each man separately whether he wishes to express such a preference has been suspended, but his right to do so is emphasised in the public notices and in the instructions to the Ministry's staff. I should point out that the extent to which effect can be given to preferences is determined, of course, by the number of vacancies in the Services concerned, and by the suitability of the individual applicant for the Service for which he expresses a preference.

Sir T. Moore: May I take it that, as far as possible, such preference will be observed, since, as is no doubt within the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman, a soldier, sailor or airman in the Service which he prefers is more happy and more efficient?

Mr. Bevin: That is correct, but I found that there were 175,000 waiting to be interviewed, many of whom would never be taken in. I felt that it was unjust to go on calling up men of a later age until these Services had determined whether they would take them or not.

Mr. Woodburn: Would the Minister consider the possibility of asking the War Office, when it takes in young men, to take them to camps according to their occupation, in the special occupations of garage engineer and other engineers, so


that these men will not be put into the wrong places?

Mr. Bevin: That is a separate question.

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.

Mr. Thurtle: asked the Minister of Labour the percentage of persons registering under the Military Service Acts who have registered as conscientious objectors in England, Scotland and Wales, respectively?

Mr. Bevin: The percentage of men who have been provisionally registered up to and including 22nd June, as conscientious objectors, is 1.39 for England, 1.46 for Scotland, and 2.56 for Wales, making a total percentage of 1.45 for Great Britain.

Mr. Thurtle: Has the right hon. Gentleman's Department knowledge of any reason why there should be such a higher percentage of conscientious objectors in Wales?

Mr. Bevin: I can only assume that they were, until recently, a little further away from the battle.

Mr. McGovern: Is not that higher percentage due to the teaching of the Labour Members in Wales?

Sir H. Morris-Jones: asked the Minister of Labour how many resolutions he has received from public bodies urging the compulsory enlistment of conscientious objectors in an organisation under Government control for non-combatant duties at rates of pay and allowances identical with those made to persons of similar grades in His Majesty's Forces; and what reply he has returned?

Mr. Bevin: I have received 24 resolutions from public bodies in the sense indicated, and have taken note of the views expressed. No reply has been sent, beyond a formal acknowledgment. I may add that I am giving further consideration to the whole question.

Sir H. Morris-Jones: In view of the fact that conditions have changed much since the original legislation was introduced and that we are now fighting for our hearths and. homes, will the right hon. Gentleman review the whole situation and bring it more into tune with public opinion?

Mr. Bevin: I understand that there has been a development, even in the points of view in this House.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has now been able to ascertain the number of conscientious objectors placed by tribunals on the register on the condition that they undertake work of national importance; how many have found, and are now engaged in, such work; and what has happened to the balance?

Mr. Bevin: The information which I promised to obtain in response to my hon. and gallant Friend's Question of 27th June is not yet complete, but I hope to be able to let him have it shortly.

Sir A. Knox: Does not the difficulty in obtaining this information show that no proper check has been made of these people? If I put down the Question next week, shall I have an answer?

Mr. Bevin: I do not think that is necessarily so. It must be remembered that my Department handles a problem concerning nearly 17,000,000 people in this country.

Major Leighton: Are there any conscientious objectors in the Civil Service?

Mr. Bevin: I must have notice of that question.

Mr. Lewis: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the large number of employés of the Fulham Borough Council who have registered as conscientious objectors; and whether he will make inquiries to see what subversive influence is at work in the district to bring about this state of affairs?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): On the information I have been able to obtain, I can find no ground for the suggestion that the number of conscientious objectors amongst the employés of this council is large, or that any such influence as my hon. Friend suggests is at work in Fulham.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

EVACUATION.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Minister of Health whether the Government will now order the compulsory evacuation of women and children from certain vulnerable areas?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Miss Cazalet) on 20th June, to which I hive nothing to add.

Mr. Cocks: Will the Minister give the substance of that answer, because I do not know what it was?

Mr. MacDonald: In effect, it was that in cases of military necessity we should not hesitate to introduce the compulsory evacuation of women and children, but in the absence of such necessity we would continue to rely upon voluntary evacuation.

Mr. Loftus: Is the Minister aware that posters have been put up in certain towns specifying that certain categories of workers must remain, and would not they resent their wives being compulsorily evacuated if they wished to remain with them?

Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the great danger of being too late in this matter of evacuation? It is much better to do it now.

Mrs. Adamson: asked the Minister of Health how many children under five years of age remained in evacuation areas on 1st June last; and how many have since been evacuated?

Mr. MacDonald: The information asked for in the first part of the Question is not available; about 1,500 children under five have left evacuation areas since 1st June under the Government scheme.

Sir Ernest Graham-Little: asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the necessity of evacuating from vulnerable areas expectant mothers in the later stages of pregnancy, whose names and addresses can be readily ascertained owing to the present system of reporting such patients at hospitals, with approximate dates of expected delivery; and whether he will take immediate action to preserve from danger this vitally important element of the community?

Mr. MacDonald: Yes, Sir. Detailed plans have been prepared, as they were before the operation of the evacuation scheme last September, for the evacuation of expectant mothers, and for their accommodation in reception areas. Arrange-

merits are in force in all evacuation areas, under which any expectant mothers who wish to do so may register for evacuation under the Government scheme. A number of women in the later stages of pregnancy are already being sent out at frequent intervals from London and other towns to reception areas, and facilities are ready for much larger numbers if the demand increases, or if circumstances make it desirable.

EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.

Sir E. Graham-Little: asked the Minister of Health whether he will now revise the present official scheme for dealing with air-raid casualties, in view of the fact that this scheme was planned in peace-time before any experience was available of the nature of air-raid injuries in modern warfare, and that the most experienced surgical opinion condemns more particularly the arrangements proposed for the collection, classification and disposal of the injured persons at the time of injury when it is especially imperative to secure the most highly-skilled professional attention available?

Mr. M. MacDonald: Although improvements are, of course, continually being effected in the emergency hospital scheme, I do not think that the experience up to date warrants any change in the main conception of the scheme, which has the approval of experienced medical and surgical opinion generally. It is designed to secure the most highly-skilled professional attention for the greatest possible number of casualties at the earliest possible moment.

Sir Arthur Harbord: asked the Minister of Health whether, owing to the evacuation scheme in operation on the East Coast, and to the serious decline in work in consequence, he will consider giving preference to doctors thrown out of work thereby to enter the services, or for appointments to war-time posts?

Mr. MacDonald: Yes, Sir. A number of doctors normally practising in the towns involved are being given appointments in the Emergency Medical Service. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of a circular recently issued on the subject. In addition, the Central Medical War Committee is giving preference to other doctors in these towns in submitting names to the Service Departments for


such vacancies as exist in their medical branches.

HOUSING (WAR DAMAGE).

Mr. Rostron Duckworth: asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the formation of mobile building squads to repair promptly all damage from air raids in their respective districts?

Mr. M. MacDonald: I am sending my hon. Friend copies of two circulars, issued in August and September last, in which guidance was given to local authorities on this subject. My regional officers have been in touch with local authorities on the action taken, and I am not aware of any cases in which arrangements made in compliance with those circulars have not operated satisfactorily.

AIR RAIDS (PROTECTION).

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Home Secretary whether he has received reports on the experiences of the recent air raids, and will he make a statement that will assist to guide both those people who have some official responsibility in air raids and all others?

Sir J. Anderson: I have communicated with my hon. Friend on this subject.

AIR-RAID SHELTERS.

Mr. E. Smith: asked the Home Secretary whether he will issue instructions that local authorities shall at once take steps to provide all people in the lower income grades with adequate air-raid shelter accommodation at their homes?

Mr. R. J. Taylor: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the wide area now covered by enemy attack, he will favourably consider a review of shelter policy with the view of providing shelters in every area?

Sir J. Anderson: So far as the specified areas are concerned, I think that local authorities are fully aware of their responsibilities. So far as concerns the areas not hitherto specified, I am taking certain further steps, but it is clear that residents in those areas must now rely in the main on measures of protection which they can provide themselves, in accordance with the advice given in recent official publications, and with assistance in certain directions from local authorities.

Mr. Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where Anderson shelters have been provided in the areas concerned, it has given great satisfaction to the people who have got them, but it has also created anxiety among those who have not been provided with them? In those circumstances will he be prepared to meet a deputation of Members of this House who desire to see him on this matter?

Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir, I shall be very glad indeed.

Mr. Taylor: In the areas that are not specified, will the local authorities have power to make provision for people, and will they be able to receive a grant from the Government for so doing?

Sir J. Anderson: Yes, indeed.

Mr. Noel-Baker: asked the Home Secretary whether he has yet been able to strengthen any existing air-raid shelters, more particularly in the vulnerable target areas?

Sir J. Anderson: So far as I am aware, local authorities have not embarked upon this course, and, in present circumstances, I do not think it would be right for me to press them to do so.

Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the matter particularly in regard to aircraft factories, harbours and such like places?

Sir J. Anderson: I think my hon. Friend knows that I have considered the matter. I addressed a letter to him a short time ago on the subject from that point of view. The matter is really one of labour and material.

Mr. George Griffiths: Will the Home Secretary see to it that the places which have not got shelters shall receive shelters before the others, as there are thousands of places which have not shelters?

Sir J. Anderson: I quite agree, and that is why I do not want to concentrate material unnecessarily in particular places while other places are not provided for.

Sir Herbert Williams: If the problem is one of labour and material, is my right hon. Friend aware that in the South of England there is a vast number of people unemployed in the building industry?

Mr. Noel-Baker: asked the Home Secretary whether he has rescinded the limitation on the provision of public


shelters by local authorities to a certain percentage of the population in the area?

Sir J. Anderson: There has been no arbitrary limitation by percentages, but it is possible that local authorities have tended to attach too much importance to the percentages tentatively suggested in the Department's Circular of 25th April, 1939. If my hon. Friend will inform me of any cases which he has in mind, I shall be very glad to look into them.

Mr. Noel-Baker: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consider giving a general instruction to local authorities that they should provide the shelters which they believe to be necessary irrespective of all suggestions about the percentages which have previously been made?

Sir J. Anderson: I will consider that.

Mr. Noel-Baker: asked the Home Secretary whether he is now using compulsory powers to induce local authorities to construct communal shelters for all sections of their respective areas for which no shelter at present exists?

Sir J. Anderson: Wide powers have been delegated to Regional Commissioners in this matter and in some cases an intimation that they would be used in the absence of more rapid progress has been given and has had effect.

Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: asked the Home Secretary whether he has now recommended the specifications of the two stage air-raid shelter to local authorities?

Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir. In present circumstances the local authorities should concentrate their efforts on the most urgent task of increasing the amount of shelter provided; and I do not think it would be right to do anything at present which might have the effect of preventing them from giving their undivided attention to this work.

Mr. Roberts: In view of the credit which the Home Secretary took to himself in a recent speech on this improved idea for shelters, would it not be reasonable to circulate to local authorities his suggestion as to this method of making effective shelters, especially in the most vulnerable districts?

Sir J. Anderson: I will certainly consider that, but the hon. Member, no

doubt, realises that many things have happened since I made that speech.

COMPULSION.

Sir Patrick Hannon: asked the Home Secretary whether he is satisfied with the results of appeals made by local authorities for recruits for Civil Defence; and whether he contemplates the introduction of compulsory measures without further delay?

Sir J. Anderson: In the areas of most local authorities the results of the recruiting campaign to date are decidedly satisfactory. In some cases, however, there is still need for further recruits, and I am now considering, as a matter of urgency, how the principle of compulsion can best be applied in order to meet the needs of those areas where local authorities have not yet succeeded in completing their establishments and reserves in all the Civil Defence services.

Sir P. Hannon: When will my right hon. Friend be able to make a definite statement on this matter? It is a pressing matter.

Sir J. Anderson: I hope to be able to do so at a very early date.

Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is the Home Secretary aware that all defence in this country, to be efficient, must be military defence?

SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES.

Sir P. Hannon: asked the Home Secretary whether he is satisfied that the measures now operative for the observation of the activities of aliens and other organisations and persons prejudicial to the national interest are being rigidly and effectively carried out in rural districts in all parts of Great Britain?

Sir J. Anderson: I have no reason to doubt that the police are as active in this matter in rural areas as in urban areas, but if my hon. Friend has any information to the contrary, I shall be glad to consider it.

Sir P. Hannon: Has my right hon. Friend received any information from any part of the country that chief constables and other officers are being hampered because of lack of co-operation from the Home Office?

Sir J. Anderson: I am quite certain that there is no ground for any such statement.

Captain Alan Graham: Is that activity to include the 17 exceptions which are making work for the chief constables impossible?

FIREARMS.

Mr. Mander: asked the Home Secretary whether instructions have now been issued to all chief constables informing them that in the event of individuals declaring the possession of firearms and having no certificate for them, no prosecution should take place; and whether he will make it clear whether such weapons made available for national defence will remain the property of the individuals concerned, or what the position is?

Sir J. Anderson: The police already have instructions to accept without formalities firearms surrendered by persons who have no firearm certificate authorising their possession, and I do not think there is any need for me to remind chief officers of police of this. As regards the second part of the Question, such persons have been required to sign an undertaking that they abandon all right to the firearms surrendered, and I think this practice must be maintained.

Mr. Mander: Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that there is a number of persons who possess these firearms who are reluctant to surrender them for confiscation, but would be only too glad to hand them over on loan, without any guarantee even that they would be returned?

Sir J. Anderson: I am very reluctant to arouse any expectations which may not in practice be fulfilled, and I see a great difficulty in giving any sort of assurance that property will be returned.

Mr. Shinwell: What do the police do with these weapons when they are surrendered? Are they to be kept until the end of the war? Cannot they be handed over to the military?

Sir J. Anderson: That is one of the main objects we have in mind.

Mr. Mander: Is the Home Secretary aware that I am not asking for any guarantee that they will be returned?

Sir J. Anderson: I am quite aware of that, but I am not quite sure what I am asked to do.

Mr. Mander: Return them if you can.

SHOP WINDOWS (PROTECTION FROM BLAST).

Mr. Doland: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to mechanical devices for the protection of shop windows from the effect of blast in air raids; whether the resistance of any such devices to blast from high explosives has been tested officially or otherwise; and whether he can recommend their use, or will he advise shopkeepers of methods whereby the safety of the public from splintered plate-glass can be in any way safeguarded?

Sir J. Anderson: The value of devices of the kind to which my hon. Friend refers has been under investigation, but the results so far obtained disclose no grounds for thinking that these devices are likely to prove as useful as the methods of protection recommended in the official publications already issued.

ITALIAN FASCIST (SENTENCE).

Colonel Burton: asked the Home Secretary whether Primo Bosi, a member of the Italian Fascisti, who was recently prosecuted at Edinburgh and fined 20s. for being in possession of an automatic pistol and 97 rounds of ammunition, has now been interned as an enemy alien?

Sir J. Anderson: This man has been detained under Defence Regulation 18B as a person of hostile associations.

Colonel Burton: How many more of these people are at large, and how long is this sort of thing going on?

Sir J. Anderson: If my hon. and gallant Friend means by that, "how many more people who ought to be interned are at large?" my only answer is that all such persons are immediately interned when they are brought to my notice.

Mr. Cocks: How is it that such persons can have firearms, when Members of Parliament are not allowed to have them?

ALIEN SERVANTS.

Sir T. Moore: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that servants' registry offices are still sending alien, including German, servants to all parts of the country; and what control is kept over this activity?

Sir J. Anderson: There are two forms of control. First, an alien who changes her address is required to inform the police of the change, and there is an obligation on the householder to see that this requirement is complied with. Secondly, as regards areas which are Aliens Protected Areas, an alien cannot move to an address in such an area without obtaining the special permission of the chief constable.

Sir T. Moore: Would my right hon. Friend consider issuing instructions that instead of these servants being sent by registries throughout the country, their names should first be sent to my right hon. Friend so as to ensure that they should not be sent where they ought not to go?

Sir J. Anderson: An alien ought not to be at large at all anywhere in the country inside a protected area.

AUXILIARY FIRE SERVICE.

Mr. Dobbie: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of his latest order in relation to the employment of Auxiliary Fire Service workers, he will consider the financial position of these workers, in comparison with wages of men in industry on the basis of a 70s. per week minimum; and will he issue such orders as will prohibit one set of workers being on continuous night duty?

Sir J. Anderson: In consultation with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Health, I have recently had under review the rates of pay of whole-time members of the Auxiliary Fire Service and of other Civil Defence services. I have also been in consultation with trade union representatives. In the result I have decided upon an immediate increase in the standard weekly rates of pay, with effect from 1st July, of 5s. for men and 3s. 6d. for women. In reply to the last part of the Question, so far as I am aware no member of the Auxiliary Fire Service is on continuous night duty under stand-by conditions.

Mr. Dobbie: If the attention of the Minister is drawn to two of these flagrant cases of continuous night duty, will he take action?

Sir J. Anderson: I shall be very glad to do so.

CONVICTED PERSONS (DETENTION).

Mr. R. Gibson: asked the Home Secretary whether, in the case of persons convicted of being in illegal possession of charts or maps of aerodromes or of other offences involving the security of the country's defence and thereafter sentenced to a relatively short period of imprisonment, he will consider taking steps to have such persons detained; and whether he has any statement to make on the subject?

Sir J. Anderson: If in any case when a person is convicted of an offence against the Defence Regulations there are any grounds for thinking that the prolonged detention of the offender is necessary on security grounds, my hon. and learned Friend can be assured that appropriate action is always taken, but there are many convictions for offences against the Defence Regulations in which there are no reasons at all for thinking that the offender had any intention of assisting the enemy. In the case which my hon. Friend no doubt has in mind, I am informed that the mental condition of the offender is such that it is most improbable that he was engaged in any sinister activities. I am having him kept under medical observation while he is in prison and am making further inquiries with a view to reaching a decision before his sentence expires on the question whether it is desirable that he should continue in custody.

FASCISTS.

Mr. Woodburn: asked the Home Secretary whether steps are being taken to ensure that Sir Oswald Mosley and other potential allies of Fascism are placed beyond reach of rescue by invaders; and whether he will consider transporting such people overseas to the custody of one of the Dominions?

Sir J. Anderson: I can assure my hon. Friend that the importance of the consideration indicated in the first part of his Question had not escaped the attention of the Government, and due note has been taken of the suggestion made in the second part.

AIR-RAID WARNINGS.

Mr. Silkin: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the air-raid warning in London, on 25th June, was inaudible to many people; and whether he will arrange for a more audible warning in future?

Sir J. Anderson: The representations which I have received about the audibility of the air-raid sirens are divided, almost equally, between those suggesting that the sirens are too loud and those suggesting that they are not loud enough. It appears, therefore, that we have struck the golden mean.

Mr. Silkin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people did not hear the warning signal at all but heard only the raiders passed signal?

Sir J. Anderson: Where the sirens are found to be inadequate, they are being supplemented by further ones.

UNINTERNED GERMAN.

Mr. Radford: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of an uninterned German named Fredrich Schweitzer, aged 22 years, who was arrested near the powder magazine in Hyde Park after midnight last week-end; why this man had not already been interned, and how many enemy aliens are still similarly at liberty?

Sir J. Anderson: The German in question is believed to be suffering from some form of mental disorder and has accordingly been remanded for a medical examination. He was classified by the local tribunal as a refugee from Nazi oppression and placed in Category C. As regards the last part of the Question, some 25,000 male Germans and Austrians were placed by the tribunals in Category C, but as my hon. Friend is doubtless aware, the internment of further classes of C Category males is at present in progress.

Mr. Radford: Is not the right hon. Gentleman fully experienced in that attitude of pretending to be simple, deaf and daft, and will his experience in this case not open his eyes at long last to the risks we are running with 25,000 other men who may do potential damage?

Sir J. Anderson: I thought it would be clear from my answer that the person has been remanded. That means remanded by a court.

Mr. Silverman: Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that nearly all the aliens who were placed in Category C were placed there because on investigation it was found that they were themselves the

victims of those who are the common enemy?

Sir J. Anderson: That is the plain truth.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the present income limit for non-manual workers of £250 per annum is the same for both Unemployment and Health Insurance purposes; and whether, in view of the proposal to increase that limit to £420 under the Unemployment Insurance Bill now before Parliament, he will introduce legislation to amend the Health Insurance Scheme likewise?

Mr. M. MacDonald: Under the present law, non-manual workers whose rate of remuneration exceeds £250 a year are not required to be insured either under the National Health Insurance scheme, or under the scheme of Unemployment Insurance. Under the former scheme, however, opportunities are provided for voluntary insurance which cannot be given under the latter scheme. The raising of the limit to £420 a year for Unemployment Insurance would not, therefore, necessarily involve a similar change for National Health Insurance, but the matter is receiving my consideration.

Mr. Davies: When will the Minister be able to make a statement which will clear up this anomaly?

Mr. MacDonald: The anomaly is not so complete as it might at first appear. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will keep in touch with me, in case I can add anything to this answer.

Mr. Collindridge: Is the Minister aware that under the voluntary scheme a person loses his medical benefit?

Mr. MacDonald: As I have said, I have all those matters under consideration.

Oral Answers to Questions — MERCANTILE MARINE (WAR INJURIES).

Sir Smedley Crooke: asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will give a full account of the arrangements made for the continued payment of wages to members of the Mercantile Marine who have received war injuries?

The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): I am afraid that, in an endeavour to give a very condensed account of a complicated subject, I did not make the position regarding these arrangements sufficiently clear. When a merchant ship is lost or wrecked by enemy action, wages are continued to the survivors for a period of a month, and where their return to this country is delayed, the period may, under certain conditions, be extended. The initiative for this continued payment of wages came from the shipowners themselves, who approached the Government with an offer to share the cost equally with the State if such a scheme were approved. Moreover, in the case of an injured survivor who at the end of the first month on fall pay is still disabled by war injury, and is granted an award by my Department, the shipowners themselves supplement that award for a further month. The country is greatly indebted to the shipowners for these generous arrangements.

Mr. Shinwell: Why did the Minister say, in the recent Debate, that when a merchant seaman loses his life as a result of enemy action his dependants continue to receive the allotment for four weeks? Is it not true that when a merchant seaman loses his life as a result of enemy action the allotment is paid only until the wages are exhausted?

Sir W. Womersley: I am afraid the hon. Member was not present when I made the statement. I said that an arrangement had been made with the three Services, and that I hoped a similar arrangement could be made in respect of merchant seamen. I know that there has been a certain misunderstanding. Some Members thought that it applied to disability, and in the case of deaths. I can assure the House that we shall take steps to see that those who have lost their lives by enemy action will be provided for until we get the matter cleared up.

Mr. David Adams: Does the arrangement mentioned by the Minister apply to the fishing fleets also?

Sir W. Womersley: No, Sir; I also stated that I was trying to make a similar arrangement with the owners of fishing vessels. Although the vast majority have met me, a minority are still standing out; but I am continuing those negotiations.

Oral Answers to Questions — REFUGEES.

Rear-Admiral Beamish: asked the Home Secretary whether he will give an indication of the numbers and nationality of alien refugees who have recently reached these shores in consequence of events on the Continent; whether he is aware that refugees are being encouraged to come here by private persons; and whether he will at once put a check on the influx and divert these liabilities on this island to their own or other countries not now at war?

Sir J. Anderson: Approximately 22,500 aliens have arrived in this country from territory on the Continent invaded by the enemy. I have no information to support the suggestion that refugees are being encouraged by private persons to come here, but in any event the cessation of passenger traffic between the United Kingdom and territories occupied or invaded by the enemy has automatically put a stop to the flow of refugees to this country.

Rear-Admiral Beamish: Is my right hon. Friend aware that at the present time, when we are making great efforts to send overseas our own rising generation, we are doing nothing to divert the influx of thoroughly undesirable people who ought to be fighting in their own country?

Sir J. Anderson: My hon. and gallant Friend is quite wrong in saying that nothing has been done. The matter is being very carefully watched.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOME DEFENCE.

ORGANISATION.

Colonel Arthur Evans: asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to the efficient co-ordination of all military and civil Departments concerned with the defence of Great Britain, he will appoint a commander-in-chief with the necessary liaison staff for this purpose, who would come under the direct orders of the Minister of Defence?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): A closely knit and necessarily elaborate organisation to ensure the effective concert of the whole apparatus of Home Defence has been over a considerable period of time gradually worked out by the combined staffs of the three fighting


Services. This organisation, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, supported by their professional advisers, gives to the Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces, the necessary control over not only the military but the civil sphere, subject, of course, to the fact that he has direct access to the Prime Minister or Minister of Defence for the time being, and can thus receive such guidance upon questions of high policy as may from time to time be required. It would be the greatest mistake, at the moment when it may well have to be put to the proof, to liquidate and remould this organisation, which at the present time is working to the satisfaction of all the principal executive persons concerned. It must, of course, be continually tested and improved. I cannot conceive that the proposal pressed in some quarters to appoint a super Commander-in-Chief over the whole field of the three Services and the civil power would not be a serious impediment to effective action; and I have never yet heard any practical suggestion as to who that officer should be.

INSPECTION BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.

Mr. Shinwell: asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the desire of hon. Members to satisfy themselves that our defence against invasion is adequate, and that our production in arms and aircraft is being speeded up, he will afford an opportunity for hon. Members to inspect defences and factories at an early date?

Colonel Wedgwood: asked the Prime Minister whether he will allow Members of Parliament to inspect the civil and military defences of their country, will facilitate such inspection, and will welcome reports from them?

The Prime Minister: The Government would always desire to treat Members of the House with all possible consideration and courtesy, but no general right to inspect military defences, dockyards or secret munition factories has ever been claimed by the House for its individual Members, and I cannot think that any such departure should be taken at this time.

Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the purport of my Question was not to claim the right

to inspect factories where operations are conducted in secret or defences which ought not to be inspected by other than military authorities, but that hon. Members should have some opportunity, other than the assurances given by the Government, to see that our defences are in an adequate condition? Is he also aware that hon. Members did have an opportunity of seeing the defences in their own areas and occasionally were disquieted by what they saw?

The Prime Minister: I hoped that aspect of the hon. Gentleman's Question would be covered by what I said about treating Members of this House with all possible consideration and courtesy, and I do not mean that to be an empty form. I think there are many contacts between Members of this House and the Ministers representing the different Departments, and I wish it to be clearly understood that it is desirable to facilitate the necessary work of Members of Parliament, especially in their own constituencies, so far as this may be done.

Colonel Wedgwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that during the last war he himself gave me and other Members frequent opportunities of visiting the front in France? Are we not to be allowed to do the same here?

Captain Bellenger: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that when he was not in office himself he had very adequate facilities, more than other private Members, of going overseas, seeing the defences there and interviewing British generals?

The Prime Minister: I think that all these matters had better be decided in a spirit of the utmost good will.

MAN-POWER.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government that every adult should have his definitely assigned place and allotted task in the defence of Britain; and whether plans are being rapidly organised with that end in view?

Mr. Attlee: It is certainly the intention of His Majesty's Government to utilise the man-power of the nation in the best possible way and to the utmost limits practicable.

Mr. Cocks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that people want to do something


for their country and are ready to do anything if only they are told what to do? We are far ahead of the Government in this matter.

Mr. Attlee: We quite recognise that everything should be done to find work for the people of this country.

Sir H. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that from the Central Register, which has been in operation for 10 months, only one-tenth of its 100,000 have been placed? Is the rest of the job proceeding more expeditiously?

Oral Answers to Questions — GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (STAFFS).

Colonel A. Evans: asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to expediting decisions during the present emergency, he will authorise Secretaries of State and Ministers personally to approve all Departmental recommendations for appointments and necessary additions to their staffs, whether in excess of authorised establishments or not, without reference to the Treasury?

Mr. Attlee: No, Sir, I do not think any change is needed in the existing arrangements, under which there is full and speedy co-operation on staffing questions between the Departments and the Treasury.

Colonel Evans: Is my right hon. Friend entirely satisfied that there is a speed-up in these matters at the present time?

Mr. Attlee: As far as I am aware, but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman has any instances to the contrary, perhaps he will let me know.

Oral Answers to Questions — CONDUCT OF THE WAR.

Colonel Wedgwood: asked the Prime Minister whether he will give time for the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme concerning the inadequate preparation for success in Flanders?

[That, in the opinion of this House, a Royal Commission should be appointed to inquire into the lack of adequate defensive preparations on that part of the sub-Maginot line covered by British

troops; whether the position was known to His Majesty's Government; why it was not remedied during the eight months' grace; what were the causes of the delay in providing equipment; and what lessons are to be learned from past experience in framing a new and forward policy?]

Mr. Attlee: No, Sir. I can hold out no hope of time being found for the Motion standing in the name of my right hon. and gallant Friend.

Colonel Wedgwood: In view of the fact that in the last war far less serious disasters in Mesopotamia and the Dardanelles resulted in an inquiry by a Royal Commission such as this, will the right hon. Gentleman say why the very serious deficiencies in Flanders are not to be inquired into and we are not to profit by the mistakes that were made?

Mr. Attlee: I am not dealing with the Motion of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman but with the question of time being found for it. I can hold out no hope of giving time for it. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman will bear in mind, I am sure, the actual conditions of the present day.

Colonel Wedgwood: Does not this refusal to give time for a discussion under our present rules deny the right of Members of this House to have an inquiry?

Oral Answers to Questions — SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.

Sir George Mitcheson: asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes from time to time to make a statement in general terms, so far as it may be possible without prejudice to the public interest, as to the action taken as a result of the recommendations of the Select Committee on National Expenditure?

Mr. Attlee: I have no doubt that the Ministers whose Departments are the subject of recommendations from the Select Committee will give the House information, so far as the public interest permits, on the action taken on those recommendations. I see no advantage in more general statements made from time to time.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTERS (BROADCASTS TO AMERICA).

Mr. G. Strauss: asked the Prime Minister whether he will take steps to ensure that only those Cabinet Ministers who are known to possess the confidence of the American people should broadcast to that country in future?

The Prime Minister: It was at my personal request that my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council delivered the excellent and inspiring broadcast to which the hon. Member refers. I have no doubt that it was widely welcomed both here and in the United States, and I am sorry that in this hour of peril the hon. Member should put upon the Notice Paper a Question which does the country so little good and himself so little credit.

Mr. Strauss: Does not the Prime Minister consider that it is in the national interest that broadcasts from Ministers to America should be made by people who are persona grata with the American public—[HON. MEMBERS: HOW do you know?"]—either by himself or other Ministers who are persona grata but not by those against whom there is strong feeling among the American public?

The Prime Minister: I have the greatest respect and regard for the American public, but I do not consider that we have any means of determining with any precision which of us is persona grata, nor in the ultimate issue could I recognise their final right to judge.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

LAND CULTIVATION.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the uncultivated state of thousands of acres of land which are visible on a railway journey from Birmingham to London; and whether he will take steps to ensure improved cultivation of this land?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): The county war agricultural executive committees, in consultation with my Department, have the matter of uncultivated or under-cultivated land under constant consideration, and all possible steps will be taken, whether by directions to the owners or occupiers of

the land, by the termination of tenancies and re-letting or holdings, or, if necessary, by taking possession of land in suitable cases, to effect an improvement. I should add that, apart from administrative action of this nature, my Department, acting through the county committees, is assisting farmers in various ways with the object of enabling them to bring their land into a better state of cultivation.

Mr. De la Bère: Will my right hon. Friend pay special attention to the particular matter to which I am alluding here, because anyone who makes that railway journey knows that what I have said is true?

Mr. Craven-Ellis: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is satisfied that agricultural land in the county of Northampton is cultivated to its maximum, and that there is sufficient labour employed by the farmers to manage their farms in an efficient manner?

Mr. Hudson: I am not satisfied that in any county all the land is cultivated to its maximum capacity. It is for that reason that a farm survey is now being made in every county to ascertain how production can best be increased and what additional labour, fertilisers, etc., will be needed.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: May I ask how it is that Northampton County Education Committee has given an additional week's holiday to children to help on farms if there is adequate labour already available?

Mr. Hudson: That does not arise out of this Question.

CREDIT FACILITIES (BANKS).

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in connection with the new prices for farm produce and the provision and extension of essential credit facilities by the banks, he will confer with the bankers concerned with a view to the interest charges on these advances and overdrafts not exceeding 3 per cent., in view of the present Bank Rate of 2 per cent., and the need to obtain the maximum output from the farms?

Mr. Hudson: No, Sir.

Mr. De la Bère: Will my right hon. Friend confer with the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Does he not realise that this


question of charges by the banks of 5 per cent. on overdrafts is one on which some concession must be made? It is quite useless to give this sort of answer, and in view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I shall raise the matter at the earliest possible moment on the Motion for the Adjournment. It is an absolute scandal.

LAND RECLAMATION (CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS).

Sir P. Hurd: asked the Minister of Agriculture what county war agriculture committees, as in Hampshire, have organised teams of conscientious objectors for work on land reclamation, etc.; and whether steps will be taken for the more general use of the services of conscientious objectors in this kind of work?

Mr. Hudson: The need for gang labour varies in different counties, and not many committees have as yet found it necessary to organise gangs on farms. Efforts are being made by the local offices of the Ministry of Labour and the committees to utilise, either individually or in gangs where they are used, the services of those conscientious objectors who are available and suitable for agricultural work.

Sir P. Hurd: Can my right hon. Friend give some idea of how far this matter is under process and how far it is being done by the encouragement of his Department?

Mr. Hudson: We encourage it in all the ways we can.

Sir P. Hurd: How many committees have responded?

DAMAGE BY RABBITS.

Mr. R. Gibson: asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps his Department now proposes to take, in conjunction with other Departments, to conserve the nation's food supplies against the depredations of rabbits?

Mr. Hudson: County war agricultural executive committees have been active in the exercise of the powers which have been delegated to them under the Defence Regulations to deal with rabbits, and I have recently again called their attention to the matter.

Mr. Gibson: What steps are being taken? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether arrangements are being made, either by the Board alone or in

association with other Departments, whereby, as soon as there is an "R" in the month, the rabbits will be in the pot?

Mr. Hudson: I do not think that within the limits of a Parliamentary answer I can go into the whole question of what is being done.

Mr. John Morgan: Would the right hon. Gentleman have any objection to individuals who are skilled at catching rabbits, sometimes illegally, going on anybody's land to keep them down?

Mr. Hudson: If there is anybody who thinks he is skilled at the job, he should apply to the executive committee.

Oral Answers to Questions — NORTHERN IRELAND (TEACHERS AND STUDENTS, HOLIDAYS).

Dr. Little: asked the Home Secretary whether, as the school holiday season is now approaching in Great Britain, he will make satisfactory arrangements whereby teachers and students from Northern Ireland with the least inconvenience, and without obstacles being placed in their way, will receive passports to enable them to return home for their holidays?

Sir J. Anderson: Persons desiring to travel from Great Britain to Northern Ireland must be in possession of an exit permit for the journey, and on grounds of national security the grant of exit permits is, in general, limited to persons who satisfy the permit authorities that it is necessary for them to travel on business of national importance. I am glad, however, to be able to inform my hon. Friend that I have decided to make an exception in the case of students who are domiciled in Northern Ireland so as to allow of their being granted exit permits for return to their homes for the holidays. Applications for exit permits should be made at least two weeks before the date on which the student wishes to travel to Northern Ireland. I regret that I have not felt justified in authorising any departure from the general rule in the case of teachers who are domiciled in Northern Ireland.

Dr. Little: Will the right hon. Gentleman do his utmost to obviate all hardships?

Sir J. Anderson: Some hardship is inseparable in the restriction of traffic.

Oral Answers to Questions — CHANNEL ISLANDS (EVACUATION).

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Home Secretary whether he can now make some statement about the recent civilian evacuation from the Channel Islands?

Sir J. Anderson: When it was decided to demilitarise the Channel Islands special facilities were made available for certain categories of the population to come to the mainland, and 22,656 persons took advantage of these facilities. In addition, a number of persons left by other means, including air transport. It is estimated that altogether 25,000 persons left the Islands.

Mr. De la Bère: Would not the right hon. Gentleman wish to put on record his appreciation of the tireless skill and courage displayed by the pilots of Jersey Airways?

Sir J. Anderson: I believe that observation is fully justified.

Mr. Mander: How many people remain on the island?

Sir J. Anderson: The total population was, I believe 92,000.

Mr. Benjamin Smith: Would it not have been preferable compulsorily to evacuate the whole of the islands and defend them ourselves?

Sir J. Anderson: That is another matter.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. Lees-Smith: Will the Prime Minister state the Business for next week?

The Prime Minister: The Business for next week will be:
Tuesday—Committee stage of the Supplementary Vote of Credit for War Expenditure, 1940. Afterwards the Adjournment of the House will be moved, and a Debate will take place in Secret Session on the work of the Ministry of Economic Warfare.
Wednesday—Second Reading and remaining stages of the British North America Bill [Lords]; Committee and remaining stages of the Unemployment Insurance Bill and the Merchant Shipping (Salvage) Bill; Report stage of the Supplementary Vote of Credit; Second Reading of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill [Lords], and of the Confirmation of Executors (War Service) (Scotland) Bill [Lords].
Thursday—Supply (18th allotted day); Committee, when there will be a Debate on agriculture.
During the week it may also be necessary to make progress with a special Consolidated Fund Bill, which will be required after the House has agreed to the Supplementary Vote of Credit.
Perhaps I might say about the Business to-day that after going formally into Committee of Supply the Adjournment of the House will be moved, and I shall make a statement on the War Situation. In view of the wish expressed last week for a full and frank Debate on matters relating to the war, it is proposed after my statement to move the necessary Resolution so that the House may continue the Debate in Secret Session.

Mr. Cocks: Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that it was never so true as to-day that we are the one voice in Europe and that we must speak freely to Europe and not in secret?

The Prime Minister: I hope that on some days we shall speak freely and sometimes in private.

Sir H. Williams: While fully appreciating what is in the Prime Minister's mind so far as to-day's Debate is concerned, I should like to ask whether he does not realise that there are certain dangers in speeches being made by Ministers and being published in respect of which there is no subsequent discussion published. Does he realise that there are essential dangers in a procedure of that kind?

The Prime Minister: It is very difficult to please everybody, but I understood that a Secret Session was felt to be desirable so that the House could get into the most intimate relationship with the Government and all views could be expressed without their having to be read next morning by the enemy; and at the next moment, when we are indulging in that procedure at the wish of the House, my hon. Friend raises the opposite point of view and claims that the discussions should be in public. It is a matter of total indifference to the Government if hon. Members would like to have the discussion in public. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That could not be the case to-day, because we said last week that we would, if it was desired, have the discussion in secret.

Sir H. Williams: I do not think the Prime Minister quite appreciates the point I was trying to make. The point I am raising concerns the position when a statement is made by the Prime Minister and that statement alone is published, and the remainder of the Debate is not. I am entirely in favour of having Secret Sessions from time to time, but the question is whether it is desirable to have a Debate partly in public and partly in secret.

The Prime Minister: The statement which I shall make has certainly been considered from the point of view that it will be read abroad to-morrow.

Sir William Davison: Is not the whole point that in a Secret Session certain suggestions may be made to the Government for amendments in tactics and so on, and that they would be useful to our enemies if they knew of them? Is not that the whole object in having a Secret Session?

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to discourage organs of the Press giving entirely imaginary summaries of what may take place in Secret Session?

The Prime Minister: I have not seen any of that; very much to the contrary.

Resolved,
That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn till Tuesday next."—[The Prime Minister.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

That they have agreed to,—

Consequential Amendment to—

Christchurch Corporation Bill, without Amendment.

Amendments to—

Gosport Water Bill [Lords],

The Monmouthshire and South Wales Employers' Mutual Indemnity Society Limited Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to include unemployment insurance among the classes of subjects enumerated in section ninety-one of the British North America Act, 1867." [British North America Bill [Lords].]

BRITISH NORTH AMERICA BILL [Lords].

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 70.]

BILLS REPORTED.

SAINT MARY MAGDALENE HOSPITAL (NEW- CASTLE-UPON-TYNE) BILL [Lords].

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).

Bill to be read the Third time; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

SOUTH-EASTERN GAS CORPORATION LIMITED (ASSOCIATED COMPANIES) BILL [Lords].

Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).

Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

Second Report from the Committee of Public Accounts (with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices) brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 147.]

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY.

[17TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1940.

CLASS I.

TREASURY AND SUBORDINATE DEPARTMENTS.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £295,003, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and other expenses in the Department of His Majesty's Treasury and Subordinate Departments, the salary of a Minister for Co-ordination of Defence, and the salary of a Minister without Portfolio."—[Note.—£147,000 has been voted on account.]

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Captain Margesson.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next.

Orders of the Day — WAR SITUATION.

FRENCH FLEET.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]

3.54 p.m.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): It is with sincere sorrow that I must now announce to the House the measures which we have felt bound to take in order to prevent the French Fleet from falling into German hands. When two nations are fighting together under long and solemn alliance against a common foe, one of them may be stricken down and overwhelmed, and may be forced to ask its Ally to release it from its obligations. But the least that could be expected was that the French Government, in abandoning the conflict and leaving its whole weight to fall upon Great Britain and the British Empire, would have been careful not to inflict needless injury upon their faithful comrade, in whose final victory the sole chance of French freedom lay, and lies.
As the House will remember, we offered to give full release to the French from their Treaty obligations, although these were designed for precisely the case which arose, on one condition, namely, that the French Fleet should be sailed for British harbours before the separate armistice negotiations with the enemy were completed. This was not done, but on the contrary, in spite of every kind of private and personal promise and assurance given by Admiral Darlan to the First Lord and to his Naval colleague the First Sea Lord of the British Admiralty, an armistice was signed which was bound to place the French Fleet as effectively in the power of Germany and its Italian following as that portion of the French Fleet which was placed in our power when many of them, being unable to reach African ports, came into the harbours of Portsmouth and Plymouth about 10 days ago. Thus I must place on record that what might have been a mortal injury was done to us by the Bordeaux Government with full knowledge of the consequences and of our dangers, and after rejecting all our appeals at the moment when they were abandoning the Alliance, and breaking the engagements which fortified it.
There was another example of this callous and perhaps even malevolent treatment which we received, not indeed from the French nation, who have never been and apparently never are to be consulted upon these transactions, but from the Bordeaux Government. This is the instance. There were over 400 German air pilots who were prisoners in France, many of them, perhaps most of them, shot down by the Royal Air Force. I obtained from M. Reynaud a personal promise that these pilots should be sent for safe keeping to England, and orders were given by him to that effect; but when M. Reynaud fell, these pilots were delivered over to Germany in order, no doubt, to win favour for the Bordeaux Government with their German masters, and to win it without regard to the injury done to us. The German Air Force already feels acutely the shortage of high grade pilots, and it seemed to me particularly odious, if I may use the word, that these 400 skilled men should be handed over with the sure knowledge that they would be used to bomb this country, and thus force our airmen to shoot them down for the second time over. Such wrongful


deeds I am sure will not be condoned by history, and I firmly believe that a generation of Frenchmen will arise who will clear their national honour from all countenance of them.
I said last week that we must now look with particular attention to our own salvation. I have never in my experience seen so grim and sombre a question as what we were to do about the French Fleet discussed in a Cabinet. It shows how strong were the reasons for the course which we thought it our duty to take, that every Member of the Cabinet had the same conviction about what should be done and there was not the slightest hesitation or divergence among them, and that the three Service Ministers, as well as men like the Minister of Information and the Secretary of State for the Colonies, particularly noted for their long friendship with France, when they were consulted were equally convinced that no other decision than that which we took was possible. We took that decision, and it was a decision to which, with aching hearts but with clear vision, we unitedly carne. Accordingly early yesterday morning, 3rd July, after all preparations had been made, we took the greater part of the French Fleet under our control, or else called upon them, with adequate force, to comply with our requirements. Two battleships, two light cruisers, some submarines, including a very large one, the "Surcouf," eight destroyers and approximately 200 smaller but extremely useful minesweeping and anti-submarine craft, which lay for the most part at Portsmouth and Plymouth, though there were some at Sheerness, were boarded by superior forces, after brief notice had been given wherever possible to their captains.
This operation was successfully carried out without resistance or bloodshed except in one instance. A scuffle arose through a misunderstanding in the submarine "Surcouf," in which one British leading seaman was killed and two British officers and one rating wounded and one French officer killed and one wounded. For the rest, the French sailors in the main cheerfully accepted the end of a period of uncertainty. A considerable number, 800 or 900, have expressed an ardent desire to continue the war, and some have asked for British nationality. This we are ready to grant without prejudice to the other Frenchmen,

numbered by thousands, who prefer to fight on with us as Frenchmen. All the rest of those crews will be immediately repatriated to French ports, if the French Government are able to make arrangements for their reception by permission of their German rulers. We are also repatriating all French troops who were in this country, excepting those who, of their own free will, have volunteered to follow General de Gaulle in the French forces of liberation of whom he is chief. Several French submarines have also joined us independently, and we have accepted their services.
Now I turn to the Mediterranean. At Alexandria, where a strong British battle fleet is lying, there are, besides a French battleship, four French cruisers, three of them modern 8-inch gun vessels, and a number of smaller ships. These have been informed that they cannot be permitted to leave harbour and thus fall within the power of the German conquerors of France. Negotiations and discussions, with the details of which I need not trouble the House, have necessarily been taking place, and measures have now been taken to ensure that those ships, which are commanded by a very gallant Admiral, shall be sunk or otherwise made to comply with our wishes. The anguish which this process has, naturally, caused to the British and French naval officers concerned may be readily imagined, when I tell the House that only this morning, in the air raid upon Alexandria by Italian aircraft, some of the French ships fired heavily and effectively with us against the common enemy. We shall, of course, offer the fullest facilities to all French officers and men at Alexandria who wish to continue the war, and will provide for them and maintain them during the conflict. We have also promised to repatriate all the rest, and every care in our power will be taken, if they allow it, for their safety and their comfort. So much for Alexandria.
But the most serious part of the story remains. Two of the finest vessels of the French Fleet, the "Dunkerque" and the "Strasbourg," modern battle cruisers much superior to "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau"—and built for the purpose of being superior to them—lay with two battleships, several light cruisers and a number of destroyers and submarines and other vessels at Oran and


at its adjacent military port of Mers-El-Kebir on the Northern African shore of Morocco. Yesterday morning, a carefully chosen British officer, Captain Holland, lately Naval Attaché in Paris, was sent on in a destroyer and waited upon the French Admiral Gensoul. After being refused an interview, he presented the following document, which I will read to the House. The first two paragraphs of the document deal with the general question of the Armistice, which I have already explained in my own words. The fourth paragraph begins as follows: This is the operative paragraph:
It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on to the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer, we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose, we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me"—
That is, the British Admiral—
to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers-El-Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives:

(a) Sail with us and continue to fight for victory against the Germans and Italians.
(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews will be repatriated at the earliest moment.
If either of these courses is adopted by you, we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation, if they are damaged meanwhile.
(c) Alternatively, if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews, to some French port in the West Indies, Martinique, for instance, where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction or he perhaps entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must, with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within six hours.
Finally, failing the above, I have the orders of His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands.
We had hoped that one or other of the alternatives which we presented would have been accepted, without the necessity of using the terrible force of a British battle squadron. Such a squadron arrived

before Oran two hours after Captain Holland and his destroyer. This battle squadron was commanded by Vice-Admiral Somerville, an officer who distinguished himself lately in the bringing-off of over 100,000 Frenchmen during the evacuation from Dunkirk. Admiral Somerville was further provided, besides his battleships, with a cruiser force and strong flotillas. All day the parleys continued, and we hoped until the afternoon that our terms would be accepted without bloodshed. However, no doubt in obedience to the orders dictated by the Germans from Wiesbaden, where the Franco-German Armistice Commission is in session, Admiral Gensoul refused to comply and announced his intention of fighting. Admiral Somerville was therefore ordered to complete his mission before darkness fell, and at 5.53 p.m. he opened fire upon this powerful French Fleet, which was also protected by its shore batteries. At 6 p.m. he reported that he was heavily engaged. The action lasted for some 10 minutes and was followed by heavy attacks from our naval aircraft, carried in the "Ark Royal." At 7.20 p.m. Admiral Somerville forwarded a further report, which stated that a battle cruiser of the "Strasbourg" class was damaged and ashore; that a battleship of the "Bretagne" class had been sunk, that another of the same class had been heavily damaged, and that two French destroyers and a seaplane carrier, "Commandant Teste," were also sunk or burned.
While this melancholy action was being fought, either the battle cruiser "Strasbourg" or the "Dunkerque," one or the other, managed to slip out of harbour in a gallant effort to reach Toulon or a North African port and place herself under German control, in accordance with the Armistice terms of the Bordeaux Government—though all this her crew and captain may not have realised. She was pursued by aircraft of the Fleet Air Arm and hit by at least one torpedo. She may have been joined by other French vessels from Algiers, which were well placed to do so and to reach Toulon before we could overtake them. She will, at any rate, be out of action for many months to come.
I need hardly say that the French ships were fought, albeit in this unnatural cause, with the characteristic courage of the French Navy, and every


allowance must be made for Admiral Gensoul and his officers who felt themselves obliged to obey the orders they received from their Government and could not look behind that Government to see the German dictation. I fear the loss of life among the French and in the harbour must have been heavy, as we were compelled to use a severe measure of force and several immense explosions were heard. None of the British ships taking part in the action was in any way affected in gun-power or mobility by the heavy fire directed upon them. I have not yet received any reports of our casualties, but Admiral Somerville's Fleet is, in all military respects, intact and ready for further action. The Italian Navy, for whose reception we had also made arrangements and which is, of course, considerably stronger numerically than the Fleet we used at Oran, kept prudently out of the way. However, we trust that their turn will come during the operations which we shall pursue to secure the effectual command of the Mediterranean.
A large proportion of the French Fleet has, therefore, passed into our hands or has been put out of action or otherwise withheld from Germany by yesterday's events. The House will not expect me to say anything about other French ships which are at large except that it is our inflexible resolve to do everything that is possible in order to prevent them falling into the German grip.
I leave the judgment of our action, with confidence, to Parliament. I leave it to the nation, and I leave it to the United States. I leave it to the world and to history.
Now I turn to the immediate future. We must, of course, expect to be attacked, or even invaded, if that proves to be possible—it has not been proved yet—in our own island before very long. We are making every preparation in our power to repel the assaults of the enemy, whether they be directed upon Great Britain, or upon Ireland, which all Irishmen, without distinction of creed or party, should realise is in imminent danger. These again are matters upon which we have clear views. These preparations are constantly occupying our toil from morn till night, and far into the night. But, although we have clear views, it would not, I think, be profitable for us to discuss

them in public, or even, so far as the Government are concerned, except under very considerable reserve, in a private session. I call upon all subjects of His Majesty, and upon our Allies, and well-wishers—and they are not a few—all over the world, on both sides of the Atlantic, to give us their utmost aid. In the fullest harmony with our Dominions, we are moving through a period of extreme danger and of splendid hope, when every virtue of our race will be tested, and all that we have and are will be freely staked. This is no time for doubt or weakness. It is the supreme hour to which we have been called.
I will venture to read to the House a message which I have caused to be sent to all who are serving in positions of importance under the Crown, and if the House should view it with sympathy, I should be very glad to send a copy of it to every Member for his own use, not that such exhortations are needed. This is the message:
On what may be the eve of an attempted invasion or battle for our native land, the Prime Minister desires to impress upon all persons holding responsible positions in the Government, in the Fighting Services, or in the Civil Departments, their duty to maintain a spirit of alert and confident energy. While every precaution must be taken that time and means afford, there are no grounds for supposing that more German troops can be landed in this country, either from the air or across the sea, than can be destroyed or captured by the strong forces at present under arms The Royal Air Force is in excellent order and at the highest strength it has yet attained. The German Navy was never so weak, nor the British Army at home so strong as now. The Prime Minister expects all His Majesty's servants in high places to set an example of steadiness and resolution. They should check and rebuke expressions of loose and ill-digested opinion in their circles, or by their subordinates. They should not hesitate to report, or if necessary remove, any officers or officials who are found to be consciously exercising a disturbing or depressing influence, and whose talk is calculated to spread alarm and despondency. Thus alone will they be worthy of the fighting men, who, in the air, on the sea, and on land, have already met the enemy without any sense of being outmatched in martial qualities.
In conclusion, I feel that we are entitled to the confidence of the House and that we shall not fail in our duty, however painful. The action we have already taken should be, in itself, sufficient to dispose once and for all of the lies and rumours which have been so industriously


spread by German propaganda and Fifth Column activities that we have the slightest intention of entering into negotiations in any form and through any channel with the German and Italian Governments. We shall, on the contrary, prosecute the war with the utmost vigour by all the means that are open to us until the righteous purposes for which we entered upon it have been fulfilled.

Orders of the Day — SECRET SESSION.

4.23 p.m.

The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, I beg to call your attention to the fact that strangers are present.

Mr. Speaker: The Question is, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question put, and agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]